My guest on today’s show is Jo Callahan. Jo is Vice President of Client Strategy and Insights at Bazaarvoice. Prior to Bazaarvoice, Jo led global partnerships at Pinterest, and before that, she was with Unilever for 10 years, where she led media for the foods business and ran Unilever’s award-winning in-house studio. Jo started her career with Citi in New York.

We discussed Jo’s role at Bazaarvoice, her learnings from running Unilever’s in-house studio,and her predictions for retail media. Please enjoy my conversation with Jo Callahan.

Dave: Jo, welcome to the show.

Jo: Dave, thank you so much for having me.

Dave: A pleasure. Take us back. How’d you get your start in the space?

Jo: Well, how far can I go back? Because my obsession with video and motion picture actually started when I was a kid and I was doing stop-motion animation in my dollhouse. But career-wise, I’ll take you back to Citi, where I got my start as a video editor for City Media, which is our in-house agency. I was cutting analysts and economist commentary for the bank. The reality is it was an amazing opportunity for me to experience what it was like internally within a comms organization at one of the largest brands in the world. So, a really amazing start to a career in marketing and in global media. From Citi, I went over to Unilever, where I had started there, and I was in a role for about a year. And I was part of a team that did cross-portfolio digital activation and about a year in, Gail Tifford, who is an incredible woman in the industry – she was leading media at the time for Unilever in North America. And we had crossed paths in some meetings and we had done a few things together within the portfolio. And I’ll never forget it. She actually reached out. It was just a subject line. It was very Gail. And it said, “I have a role, are you interested?” And I couldn’t say yes fast enough. I don’t even know what the role was. I didn’t know what capacity I would be working in the role. But I knew that being a part of what Gail was doing was going to change my life. And she absolutely changed my life with that email. And so it ended up being a great role. It was a media manager role on her team. And so I got to work on some of the most incredible partnerships, media partnerships with some amazing brands within the portfolio. I started on the ice cream business so it’s always got a special place in my heart. And so I did media for about eight years at Unilever before going over to lead the in-house studio. And it’s just been an incredible ride from media to content and bringing all of those pieces together. And then I spent a quick two years at Pinterest before coming over to Bazaarvoice. So really getting my start in the video space and it’s just continued throughout my career. 

Dave: Jo, your knowledge – both of the practical aspects of creative production and the organizational and vision aspects – is just unparalleled. I’ve really enjoyed our interactions so far. Now I got to ask you – stop motion video as a kid. You’ve got to tell us about that. What kind of tools did you use? Did you have a video camera? I assume this was pre-android and iPhone and all that good stuff. 

Jo: Yeah, I don’t want to date myself but I will tell you it was on videotape and my family had a video camcorder and I would set it up and I would do frame-by-frame stop motion animation with either my brother’s Lego sets or with my dolls in my dollhouse. And I’ve got to source those videos for my parents,I think they probably still have them. But I was obsessed with video and motion picture and storytelling and it really just became something that carried through for me from a career standpoint now too which has been really awesome.

Dave: It’s amazing. It’s great to see the dots connect and also to have those breaks that you mentioned where you get an email and that’s the opening and that’s the opportunity. So talk to us if you would about Unilever and this idea of the in-house studio. First, how does that work? What’s that like? You’ve got agencies, you’ve got in-house – how do you think about that?

Jo: I was in the media team at Unilever for eight years and in that time I became absolutely obsessed with content. What works where? Why? How? I had such a strong understanding of channels, of the role of channels, publishers, inventory, and understanding how media worked. But what was really compelling to me and especially as I was coming up in my career and digital fragmentation became the real story of that decade, was running fit-for-platform assets and within the context of platforms. And so I really made it my mission to start to understand what we needed to do from a content standpoint to be relevant in media. And so when the studio role came open and that was in my last two years at Unilever, I was absolutely passionate about getting that role. I went to Rob Master who was leading media at the time at Unilever and I said put me in coach. Like this is it for me. You need a media person in here who understands all of those elements intimately and how channels play a role in strategy. But how to bring that to life from a creative and a content standpoint is becoming more and more critical, and if you don’t have these two pieces connected, you are missing a massive opportunity. And so I got that role and I was so thrilled to be leading the studio and the creative agenda really for Unilever in North America, including our external creative agency roster. And what’s funny is, when I came into the role, the feedback I immediately got from the in-house agency leads and from the external agencies was just pure excitement to have somebody who understood media coming into a creative and a content role. Because I think a lot of times in large organizations there are silos that exist that prevent the type of collaboration that’s really necessary in the space. And so a lot of what I was hearing is like, listen media, it feels like a black hole to us, we don’t understand the planning, the approach, the timelines. It’s like foreign territory to us to really know and we would love to work closely and more intimately with media. So that was my goal and that’s what I really set out to do when leading creative for the North American business.

Dave: Will you parse apart a couple of things that you said there? One is fit-to-platform. Tell us what that means. 

Jo: Fit-for-platform is really the idea that an asset needs to be tailored for the environment in which it will live. And so there are a couple of things there. I will look at an asset in two ways. One is the infrastructure of an ad, of an asset. So what are the different elements that come together on the backend, the piping that sort of makes it relevant, that feeds the algorithm, that makes it best in class. Within that infrastructure, what is the creativity and the content and the context that needs to be a part of that? That needs to live within the infrastructure of the ad. And so it’s one part science, one part art, and it’s how all of that comes together to create the experience for the consumer that’s going to drive best-in-class ads. And so that’s the way I’ve always thought about it and fit-for-platform is so critical. I think what you have is, back in the day when you thought you could run a video, assets across TVC, inventory, and online video, and it plays in cinema, and it plays, you know, in all of these different experiences. And the reality is you have to adapt and you can take some of that content and adapt it to be fit-for-platform. And one of the ways that we really started to look at this in one of my favorite experiments of all time is when mobile inventory started to overtake desktop inventory back in like 2015, 2016. And you know, a lot of brands were running TVC in premium online video. And that was just the way we did it. And for the smaller screen, we started to think, well, actually, there’s something different that needs to happen here. And so we started looking at framing, we started looking at pacing, supers, how do you start in your experimenting with our partners on this and thinking through, what is best-in-class look like for the smaller screen. And I know, you know, that sounds simple now because we’ve done a lot of this, but that was really some of the early conversations we were having around fit-for-platform and what needed to happen from an asset perspective to make something relevant.

Dave: Amazing. Now switching gears to another piece you talked about is running Ustudio. That is a big, big job. You had a large team, you had internal, you had agency. How do you think about structuring that kind of organization and what tips and tricks rules for the road might you have for some of our listeners who are thinking about how to organize their media efforts?

Jo: Ustudio really was an exercise in the content supply chain. How are you going to create the amount of content that you need as a brand, as a portfolio, to fill the extraordinary demand that we see in the space. And so what was incredible about agency in-housing – and a lot of brands will do this – is that you have this glide path from your core agencies, from agencies of record, some of the big houses, where your brand campaign idea, all of your core content is coming to life with messaging and all of the creative idea. And that content comes to life there. How it is filtered in through the organization adapted for different platforms then becomes a really strong role for an in-house agency to play. And so using that model, we were able to be very fast, very efficient. And we were able, we were in-house, we were down the hallway from brand teams. So if very quick things needed to happen from an agility standpoint, the team was there and ready to go. And, you know, it was everything from media assets to website, you know, .com assets, social, KVs, shopper, e-commerce. There were just a number of areas where this type of digital content activation made a ton of sense. And so it was really an exercise in the content supply chain and really getting that content out the door at scale. 

Dave: I believe our mutual friend Doug Straton may have mentioned the content supply chain to me. I feel that it does not get enough air. And perhaps you and Doug could put together a whole book or a master class or something on this subject. But a topic for another podcast. Bazaarvoice, you’re heading up a number of different areas. Talk to us about your role there. What are you up to? 

Jo: Yeah, well, you just mentioned Doug Straton and Doug is the reason I’m at Bazaarvoice. It actually all started with an invite to grab a beer. That’s a true story. Doug and I worked together at Unilever 10 years ago. And we were the OG cross-functional partners. He was leading e-commerce at the time. I was leading media for the foods business. And we worked really, really well together. We saw the value of bringing those two conversations together, especially as mobile was proliferating. And as we were starting to see changes in the digital industry, that was an amazing opportunity. And so we’ve always kept in touch. He’s been a mentor of mine for years. And we had so many conversations about the content supply chain over the years. And so, I told him I was back in Texas and I said, hey, if you want to grab a beer sometime, let me know. And he said, actually, you want to come work with me? And I was like, well, listen, that’s another one of those email subject lines where you just say yes because you know and trust the person who’s asking that they know what they’re doing. And they’re an incredible industry titan. But my first question to Doug after I said, yeah, sure, was what are you going to do with a media person at a commerce company? Because traditionally, Bazaarvoice has been a stellar ratings and review organization and has really built a strong reputation in that area. And in fact, what had happened over the last few years is that this organization has evolved in such a way that now with an offering with creators, influencers, everyday shoppers, even the ratings and reviews content coming into play in a really strong way, what’s happened is you now have this full funnel opportunity to deliver against all brand objectives from awareness to consideration within a single shot. And so what became really, really compelling for me as a media professional was, oh, so we can break down the silos with our offering in one place. And so the questions that we’ve gotten from brands and this is where I feel like I could definitely play such a strong role in this role have been, what is the right mix of branded content versus creator and UGC? Within the creator and UGC universe, what is the right mix of that type of content? What are the different types of content that play different roles against objectives? And so in fact, the answer is really straightforward because traditionally different channels, different types of content have played roles against different objectives. And that’s always been true. And so if you think about brands who are trying to drive awareness or build equity, creators play a very strong role there because they can deliver a really deep storytelling message with unique brand attributes attached in a sight sound motion asset. And so that plays a role. And they can lift attitudinal metrics in a way that other content can’t. So that supplements effective reach in some of your traditional media. If you think about launching new products and seeding review content and creating buzz and bursts of content, again, we have, you know, driving social UGC with everyday shoppers, driving review content, getting out on your best foot with an innovation, that is something that plays a role against objectives. From a consideration standpoint, how do you connect the brand to need states? So is it recipe content? Is it a beauty how to? Is it a life stage moment where you want to connect and show consumers how the brand connects in with these moments? They’re important to them. That you can create a steady drum beat of content. You can lean into, you know, nano creators, micro creators, and people trust other consumers to tell them what works and what doesn’t. And it’s such a strong opportunity to supplement that branded content supply chain all the way down to everything being underpinned by an optimized PDP. So thinking through quality, quantity, recency of ratings and reviews and having visual UGC on those landing experiences to optimize for search. And so there are just a number of ways that UGC can come to life. And so to answer your question, I guess in a very long way, the role that I play here is so fascinating because when I’m leading client strategy and I’m talking to brands daily about the challenges they face with content supply chain and really trying to be relevant in the digital space, it’s not only about creating content that fills that tremendous inventory demand, but it’s filling that inventory demand with content that resonates with consumers. And that’s creator and user-generated content. And so that’s where we play a very interesting role and how you plan that holistically with your integrated marketing plan is really where it starts to come to life for us.

Dave: Jo, you’re like the secret weapon of media and on-page, on-site content put together with this tremendous experience at the brand. I’ve got to ask you, you spent all this time on the brand side, now you’re with a partner or vendor in the ecosystem. How’s it been to go from working at the big brand to being part of that other part of the ecosystem? 

Jo: Now, I’ll tell you what’s fascinating. I’ve had the privilege of spending time on client side, on publisher side, here on a software company, I’ve seen different angles of this industry, which has been absolutely fascinating. And the challenges are the challenges, and it is just looking at them from different perspectives. It is truly about rooting yourself in consumer understanding, trying to just keep up with the demand for content and being relevant and resonant with that content. And it is incredibly challenging. It’s incredibly challenging for a brand as we’ve talked about. It’s incredibly challenging for publishers. So if I think about my time in the publishing space at Pinterest and even on the client side and understanding what the needs were of my publishing partners in the social space and otherwise, relevant content and effective content plays a very, very big role. And so if we think about it, it’s not enough to just have valuable audiences and target really, really well in that sophistication. It’s not just about having the most contextually relevant platform in the media by what we’re putting inside of that inventory is so important to media effectiveness. And in fact, you and I have talked before about some of the statistics around media effectiveness. And we know upwards of 70% of media effectiveness is driven by creative. So what you put inside of that inventory is critically important. And that’s a ton of weight. It’s too much weight for me to ignore as a media professional. And so as a content professional, I was very excited about trying to move the needle on that. And so when I think about the challenges from a publisher perspective, when I spent time on the publishing side, you know, brand investment lives and dies based on performance. And so as a publisher, I will do everything I can to make sure that that performance is driven as high as it can be, either attitudinal metrics or MMM or performance metrics because those investment decisions are made based on that. And if content is playing such a huge role in that media effectiveness, you better bet I’m going to make sure that every piece of content that goes out the door of my platform on behalf of a brand is absolutely stellar. And so all of these angles still have the same challenges and an effective and resonant content is just top of the chart.

Dave: This idea that 70% of the performance comes from the content. Talk to us more about that. What makes for great content? It seems so subjective sometimes. And yet I think you’re on to something where there’s some aspects we can put in the content and how we think about the content that can really make it more impactful. 

Jo: And this is where it comes up again, you know, we talked about fit-for-platform earlier. That’s just the baseline. So ensuring that everything that you’re creating, there are certain digital “mandatory’s” that are going to exist. And our partners know what these are. We know what they are by platform. These are very simple creative best practices to ensure that from a branded ad standpoint that the content is coming to life in a way that we know it has a best chance to resonate with the consumer. Now what goes inside of that infrastructure and those elements is still critically important. So understanding the consumer, having those messages be able to resonate, understanding the context of the platform. So listen, I spent years at Pinterest. We know that aligning yourself with a moment or an occasion drives online and offline sales, it drives attitudinal metrics. We know that having human elements and content actually drives performance. We know that having shoppable elements within the creative drive sales, there are just different elements that you can start to look at to check off. And these have been proven through meta analysis and enough work in the measurement space to understand with a degree of certainty, this is going to work. This is going to perform. Now that’s not to say that the creativity is taken out of this. There’s still a massive amount of creativity that goes into this. It’s not just the science of an ad, but that’s really what we start to lean into when we think through, you know, fit-for-platform creative being number one in sort of that effectiveness opportunity. And I think that the other element of this that’s really critical, we talked a little bit about this earlier is giving consumers content that resonates with them. So creator and user generated content. Again, we are now in an era where there is a shift in consumer behavior where consumers are looking more to other consumers to help them inform purchase decisions, to help them discover brands. And we are looking at an era where we’re starting to see inspiration within shoppable content. And so taking those traditional e-commerce elements that we knew to work and adding in a layer of inspiration and discoverability. And I mean, listen, the funnel has collapsed in a way – we used to have consumer journeys that lasted 19 days. I joke that it could last 19 seconds. You can create and convert demand in the same asset, in the same occasion, right? So it’s just that the industry has changed tremendously. But some of these core elements will always be the same.

Dave: So many great insights there. I do think you and Doug have a book to write here. Let me ask you about one other area. We’ve talked about this idea of sweating the assets. Will you tell our listeners what that means? What’s involved? 

Jo: I’ll take it back to the content supply chain. So it’s all about being able to create the amount of content you need to satisfy the demand in the space. And as someone who worked in media for ages and we always talk about non-working to working media ratios and really getting the most out of your production dollars, sweating the asset to me is creating a piece of content that can live and be adapted to live in as many places as it certainly can be, across a network, right? Across different publishers, across different retailers, across different areas within the digital landscape and how that comes to life. The other thing I love about sweating an asset is that you’ve created a nice consistent consumer journey. So you’re starting to reinforce and play things out for consumers in a way that looks consistent. And we know that that’s very strong, especially in the retail media space, you can talk about the ad experience all the way to PDP and where they’re landing, having that consistency is really key. So I love talking about sweating the assets. I will talk about it all day, because I think it’s really about being smart with production and really getting as much as you can out of a really solid piece of content.

Dave: This ability to have consistency, top of funnel and the PDP is really hard to execute on. What are you seeing leading brands do well there? How are they overcoming some of the silos and challenges that you mentioned earlier?

Jo: I see it most prolifically in the retail media space because that is truly where media and commerce come together in a very, very clear path. And what I’ve seen lately, and you know, I came into this role as a media professional, and I have been humbled by the PDP. We need to show a new appreciation for the PDP. And I think specifically as a media person, I don’t think I realized the amount of weight it was carrying. And in fact, I’ve started to think about the PDP as a media asset in a lot of ways, especially if you think about it from a sponsored product perspective, optimizing your PDP with that quality, quantity, recency of ratings and review content, with visual UGC, with all of the elements that are necessary to ensure that you have the best content going forward is absolutely critical. Because what’s happening is, and the brands who are getting it right, are taking content creation, having that live within the media inventory. So is it with on-site displays, off-site programmatic display, is it within the CTV inventory that they’re buying? Is it within social syndication? Where is that living from a retail media standpoint? That’s sort of the upper, you know, could be the upper mid funnel range? Where are we driving people? We’re driving them to the PDP. And so to think about this amazing sophistication with targeting first party valuable high-purchase intent audiences within the retail media space, being able to find them across the digital landscape in all of these different touch points. Now we have a full funnel play with awareness all the way to conversion. And then to put amazing content into those ad units, that’s half the story. Where are we driving to? Where are people landing? And what does it look like? Or if someone discovers something through a CTV asset and searches on a retail.com, what’s coming up? And who else, who’s next to us? And what do they look like from a star rating standpoint, or a review standpoint? That’s really important. And as a media person, I don’t think I gave the PDP enough credit. So I just want to say it here. 

Dave: You said it here first. You heard it here first. The PDP as a media asset, what a great insight. It’s a great framing of how to think about this opportunity. Before I let you go and get to my wrap up questions, ItsRapid and Bazaarvoice, we’re doing some pretty cool work together. What are you excited about in the partnership?

Jo: I am so excited because we are bringing the content supply chain to life. We are sweating the asset. And what excites me the most is that you all have a very clear mission. It is very straightforward and that’s what I was immediately drawn to. So when I think about it – and the retail media space is just so amazing for this opportunity – how do we take the amazing content that we can create at Bazaarvoice, partner with you to adapt, repackage, repurpose, fit-for-platform within the ad inventory space and carry that through even to the PDP. This is an amazing partnership and it’s an amazing opportunity. And I think that it comes to life in the retail media space better than anywhere. And I am so excited because not only is this the fastest growing media spend, the fastest growing digital spend for brands, I think it is a place that has grown so quickly that it’s very, very difficult for people to keep up. And especially the brand side. I think that there are retail media networks out there who are doing a really amazing job focusing on content in tandem with the media offering. And so that’s what excites me so much about the work that we do together because we are truly building this out, we are building out the content supply chain, we are sweating the assets and we are delivering content that is super relevant and resonant for consumers and that’s creator and user-generated content. So it’s an amazing partnership.

Dave: Jo, amazing speaking with you today. On that note, incredible, so many great insights on retail media, on UGC, and also I think I just had to think about this part of the ecosystem. So thank you for all that. Before I let you go, as I mentioned, I do have a couple of rapid fire questions I want to throw your way if you’re up for those. So the first one is which two people – and I know it’s hard to pick only two – but which two people have influenced you the most in your professional career?

Jo: All right, I’m going to cheat on this question. I’m going to give you two types of people, but I will name names. I have the mentors that raised me in the media industry and then the mentor that brought me over to an industry that I didn’t think I would be in. And so from a media perspective, we talked about Gail bringing me on to her team. She changed my life. Gail Tifford and is an amazing person and truly did change the trajectory of my career with that single move. With Gail, I would definitely point to Rob Master who was the VP of Media at the time after Gail left. And then Jenny Garner who was also our investment lead there. And I think just for different reasons, like these are the people who raised me in this industry and they’re all incredible, incredible talent and genuinely really good people. And so they’ve impacted me tremendously. And then the second person, I will take your question, is Doug Straton. So, you know, Doug, he is unbelievable at being able to identify opportunity and talent in ways that maybe you would not have thought of. And so when I tell you, I invited the guy out for a beer and he gave me a job at a commerce company and I’m a media person, for him to see what this opportunity looked like and for him to see how the pieces fit together so long before everyone else. And just the way it’s come to life has been amazing. He’s just an incredible person and has inspired me very much in this profession. And he also makes me a better marketer because he pushes me to learn things that I traditionally wouldn’t have had the opportunity to learn. So, very grateful for that. 

Dave: Well, it’s great to see two amazing leaders, thought leaders and visionaries working together the way you and Doug are. So, we’re thrilled to be able to work with both of you and with the whole team. Now, when you do get some time outside of work, if you do get some time outside of family and work, how do you like to spend your time? What are some of your favorite hobbies?

Ji: I tell you what, right now, I just moved back to Texas. I’m originally a Texan, spent 20 years in New York, just moved back last year. My new hobby is spending as much time as I can being overly Texan as I possibly can. And so, I will eat all the barbecue, I will float all the rivers. I will do everything in my power to be as Texan as I can right now because I love being home. And I’m so happy to be back. And so, right now my hobby is Texas.

Dave: Last but not least, if our listeners want to reach you online, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Jo: Yeah, absolutely, LinkedIn – Joanna Colvin Callahan. You could find me there and I love connecting with people and I will take any messages and I love it. 

Dave: Jo, such an inspiration working with you and talking with you today. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me on Beyond the Shelf.

Jo: Well, thank you so much for having me. I was honored to be asked and really look forward to working with you on this.

Beyond The Shelf is an open exploration of the people and process behind e-commerce. Through conversations with innovators in the space, we learn the stories of these leaders and their strategies for e-commerce success. You can find out more about how we’re helping leading brands and retailers build retail media and product detail page content faster than ever before at itsrapid.ai.

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